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Author Topic: Well well, will you look at that
Krammy
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I have a treat for all of you.

LINK REMOVED

By the way, what kata is this ?

[ August 17, 2009, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Iain Abernethy ]

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5ancestors
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I think it is either Teki Shodan or Kankudai. Sorry about the possible spelling errors.
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komatsu
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What caught my eye was the augmented forearm block used simply as a block and not as a holding or restraining move with the "off" hand.From that aspect how much faith can you have in the rest of it.Obviously an old document perhaps from a time when being totally open was not a good idea.I think it is nothing more than a basic representation of the moves.

komatsu

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common sense is so rarely used it is often mistaken for genius.pay attention at all times do your home work

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Lee Richardson
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Aren't these Motobu's twelve kumite drills from 'Watashi no Karate-jutsu'? As I understand it they're not taken from any kata in particular, but almost certainly at least influenced by Naihanchi.

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Lee

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netwarrior
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Is there anyone out there that can translate the kanji beneath the pictures? That would be useful.

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If a man dwells on the past, he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future.

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Iain Abernethy
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An English language version of the book can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Kempo-Choki-Motobu/dp/092012917X

Originally there were only 2000 hardback copies of the book produced (copy 1507 cost me a small fortune!), but in recent times they have also released this paper back version.

Some interesting stuff in it:

quote:
The kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata by grappling the opponent.

Karate is a very rough martial art which is comprised of hardness and softness in its techniques.

The karate student must practise twice a day without fail.

The Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto, Rohai styles are not left in China today and remain only in Okinawa as active martial arts.

As it is known to everyone, karate involves very rough actions. It has been recorded that deaths have occurred or causes of death have been connected with karate matches.

and so on ...

The two person drills are not attributed to any specific kata (but I agree with the idea that the influence of Naihanchi is obvious). For Wado probationers, I think you can see just how much these 12 drills influenced the two person drills in Wado (Otsuka being a student of Motobu).

All the best,

Iain

[ August 17, 2009, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Iain Abernethy ]

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komatsu
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I have always worked on the idea bunkai was an aid to make moves simpler more direct .This doesn't seem to do that .I have great respect for MOTOBU's skill as a fighter and this doesn't reflect that skill.He had students sign blood oaths they would never reveal his teachings to outsiders so why would he reveal anything in a book.I see it as more a "here is some pictures to keep you interested "to insure they read his words knowing students are likely to be more visual than cereberal.

IAIN's bunkai does more to explain the possible practicalitys of naihanchi than I see here.

komatsu

[ August 16, 2009, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: komatsu ]

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common sense is so rarely used it is often mistaken for genius.pay attention at all times do your home work

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Iain Abernethy
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Hi Komatsu,

The 12 drills shown in this book are not bunkai for Naihanchi (although, as has been said, there would seem to be some infulance from the kata i.e. the kick, the covers, etc.) so we should not look at them from that perspective. They are not bunkai for Naihanchi, but Motobu's own 2 person drills.

There has been a lot of interest in these drills in recent years. On the positive, they are close range, communicate the importance of controlling limbs, and utilise both hands simultaneously. So from that perspective they are infinitely better that most "one-step" drills. On the negative, I feel they still suffer from being "fixed" and reactive. This is personal thing, but I really don't care for drills that require set (un-instinctive) actions from the "enemy" i.e. punches being delivered in a set sequence etc. So, while fully acknowledging Motobu's genius and unquestionable ability, I personally would not make use of drills like these. Althouhg, from a "limb control" perspective, I feel they certainly have some interesting ideas to explore.

However, I think they should be viewed as the "part of the whole" that they were. Motobu did recommenced getting the first strike in (#), and he was a great believer in live practise. These drills were not the totality of his practise, they we just one part of it and were probably put together with the idea of communicating a certain set of ideas.

All the best,

Iain

(#) - “There is a saying ‘no first attack in karate’ …To be sure, it is not the budo [martial art] spirit to train for the purpose of striking others without good reason. I assume that you already understand that in karate one's primary goal must be the training of mind and body… But when a situation can't be avoided and the enemy is intent on doing you serious harm, you must fight ferociously. When one does fight, taking control of the enemy is vital, and one must take that control with the very first move. Therefore, in a fight one must attack first. It is very important to remember this.” – Choki Motobu

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Gavin J Poffley
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The link is actually to an extract from book called "Motobu Choki and Ryukyu Karate" by Iwai Kouhaku that I read a while ago and have even translated certian sections from (in the hope of getting them published but that alas fell through). It is a very informative book and contains what I rate as probably the best analysis of the origins of karate out there. Within this book is a complete reprint of Motobu's own works.

Unfortunately for most people here (and dispite of my efforts) the book is only available in Japanese at present.

I belieive the text that netwarrior inquired about is the descriptions beneath the drill photographs. I could translate these here if you like but it would take a while to do them all(I do sometimes have other things to do than write on this forum!)

If people really want me to do this then I will post a few captions at a time.

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"Geri" used alone is the Japanese word for diarrhea and should not be confused with "keri" (kick) under any circumstances!!

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Gavin J Poffley
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Ok, here are the captions to the first 3 drills.

If people want the rest then let me know as I don't want to spend time going through them if nobody is going to read it. The descriptions aren't overly enlightening from a technical point of view and they are in a slightly older form of the language that can be terribly ambiguous. If people really want to see them however then I am happy to help.

P75

Title:
Pictoral breakdown of Motobu Choki's kumite

Box in the lower right:
The 21 Kumite drills shown here are still handed down and trained today in the Nihon Karate Do Motobu Kai (Japanese karate of Motobu Choki association) alongside naifanchi as the "Choki jyunihon no kumite" (Choki's 12 paired work drills)

Drill 1:
1.This is one of the stances that can be adopted when two opponents are facing off

2. When the foe thrusts towards your face with his left fist as in the previous picture, receive and deflect at a point way down his left arm with your own right hand and simultaneously hold down his right fist with your left hand.

P76

3.Thrust into the left hand side of the enemy's chest with your right elbow that you used in the deflection. This is done concurrently with receiving and deflecting the enemy's left fist with your right hand as in the previous picture.

Drill 2:
1. here we see the form when striking away the enemy's thrusting towards your face with his right fist using your left hand.

P77

2. As the enemy thrusts towards your face again with his left fist, concurrent to his right being struck away in the previous picture, you grasp his left elbow with your right hand while your left hand grips and pulls his right wrist.

3. Thrust into his testicles with your left knee/ elbow as soon as you have gripped and pulled the enemy's right wrist with your left hand ,while gripping the enemy's left elbow with your right as in the same previous picture.

P78

Drill 3

1. Receive and deflect the enemy thrusting towards your face with his right fist using your left hand and simultaneously grasp his left wrist (Translators note: the original says "left wrist" but judging by the photographs this is likely to be an error). At the same time your right hand grips the foe's testicles.

2. In the previous picture the enemy sees that there is an opening in the guard to your face and thrusts towards it with his left fist. Here we see the form when you receive and deflect the enemy's left handed strike at the elbow using your right hand that had just struck the testicles.

P79
3. Thrust into the opponent's chest area with your right elbow, consecutive to striking away the enemy's left fist with your right hand as in the previous picture.

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"Geri" used alone is the Japanese word for diarrhea and should not be confused with "keri" (kick) under any circumstances!!

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Iain Abernethy
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Hi Gavin,

This is most kind of you. Just so you know, those 12 drills and English language translations of the captions are found in the book I linked to above. I've just dug the book out and checked the accuracy of the translations for the first 3 drills against yours and they do match (and a damn good job too seeing how much I paid for the book! :-)

The new paperback version of the book is relatively cheap and, whist it is greatly appreciated having your translations here, people could purchase the book if time does not permit you to translate them all. Just so you know and don't feel obligated to do them all.

Personally, I would really like to compare the two translations! However I know you are a busy guy and I wanted to point out that for a few dollars people can purchase an English translation of all the captains for those 12 drills (complete with all the photos) from Amazon.com.

All the best,

Iain

[ August 17, 2009, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Iain Abernethy ]

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netwarrior
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quote:
An English language version of the book can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Kempo-Choki-Motobu/dp/092012917X

Thanks for that link Iain, greatly appreciated. My reading list has grown enormously since joining this forum! [Smile]

Incidentally, do you happen to know if Funakoshi's Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu is available in an English translated edition?

quote:
I believe the text that netwarrior inquired about is the descriptions beneath the drill photographs. I could translate these here if you like but it would take a while to do them all
Many thanks Gavin. Your caption translations do breathe a little life into the illustrations and I greatly appreciate the time, effort and energy you put into doing them. As Iain said, I wouldn't want to put you to unecessary trouble, but it definately would be useful to compare your translations to the originals.

I've ordered the paperback version of the book from Amazon but in the interim I'll spend some absorbing hours comparing the photographs posted with your captions. many, many thanks. [Smile]

[ August 17, 2009, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: netwarrior ]

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If a man dwells on the past, he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future.

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Iain Abernethy
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Hi All,

It has been brought to my attention that the book linked to may be posted on that site without permission from the copyright owner.

Not wishing to encourage or be involved with inadvertent theft, I have played safe and removed the link from the original post.

I know that the link was not posted or viewed maliciously. The site in question is also very reputable and I know from personal experience that they are very good when it comes to copyright issues / internet theft. However, as I say, I feel it is better to play safe on this issue. I hope you all agree with my thinking and that the discussion started can continue.

All the best,

Iain

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www.iainabernethy.com / "The aim of discussion should not be victory but progress." - Joseph Joubert

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Iain Abernethy
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Hi Netwarrior,

Their are a couple of English translations of Funakoshi's Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu available under different names:

Karate-Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi

To-T Jitsu

They are rising in price and you'd do well to dig around and find copy listed at less than they are going for on amazon, and then get it bought before the prices rise any higher. I think paid around £14 for my copy of Karate-Justu and Amazon has it listed at over £120. Perhaps someone here knows of a cheaper supplier?

All the best,

Iain

[ August 17, 2009, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Iain Abernethy ]

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komatsu
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If only he could have put it on video.

I paid 12.95 for karate jutsu in the 60s I think that's about 4 pound and picked up a book on the life historys and storys of UESHIBA KANO and FUNAKOSHI in thier own words for 50 cents at an yard sale .No action pictures probably why the guy let it go cheap.

Try CHAPTERS/INDIGO you may find better prices check the used section.

komatsu

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common sense is so rarely used it is often mistaken for genius.pay attention at all times do your home work

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