Iain Abernethy.com   Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Iain Abernethy.com » Kata Application » Kosokun/Kushanku/Kwanku and all variations thereof...

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Kosokun/Kushanku/Kwanku and all variations thereof...
SKU Andrew
New Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for SKU Andrew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An open question to any and all styles that practice this kata and its apparent many variations.

This kata is a requirement for my grading 2nd Dan and having learnt the movements of the form I am now considering its applications.

There is one part of this kata I don't think I can deal with as it stands in the version I practice. I have posted a link which although it is not the kata I practice nor the style the "jumping, turning, double kicking" move is the same, which the exception of leaning move before the jump. From 0:44 to 0:52

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13fTu3UKQM

I have looked at numerous other versions and many do not have this as a jump, so I am inclined to think of this as a modern addition.

This is borne out by karate do-kyohan where Funakoshi describes without the jump, but as

"a stance peculiar to Kwanku, used in a stalemate situation in which each opponent has apparently exhausted his potential. The one now suddenly drops his body to the ground to startle the opponent for an attack."

I think it interesting that Funakoshi thought to mention the application as he only does this very infrequently in karate do-kyohan so he must have considered it important.

However I find this explanation difficult to accept. This kata was supposedly created by Matsumura to record what he was taught by Kushanku and as this move is unique it would suggest that it was fundamental to his style. So could a simple trick of deception be the explanation?

Itosu also made changes to this form, splitting it into two and also possibly using it as the basis for the pinan forms. This move has been preserved in many, if not all variations again suggesting its importance.

I would appreciate other peoples interpretations of what the move actually is, how you perform it and what you consider its application to be?

Thanks

Andrew

[ March 02, 2010, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: SKU Andrew ]

Posts: 9 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
komatsu
Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for komatsu   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The simplest would be dropping down and grasping his ankles or a shoulder ram into his core.I have seen the spin around move described as a flying body smash famous with some of the greco roman wrestlers.

komatsu

--------------------
common sense is so rarely used it is often mistaken for genius.pay attention at all times do your home work

Posts: 1120 | From: TORONTO GTA ONTARIO CANADA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Iain Abernethy
Administrator


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Iain Abernethy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Andrew,

The version of the kata that I practise does not have the jump shown in the clip you linked to. However, the motion looks very much like an action for when your foot is seized following an unsuccessful kick.

I hope this is clear enough as text alone sometimes makes it hard to get these things across: You have had your foot captured and are hence standing on one leg. Knowing you are going to the floor, in desperation you twist away from the enemy and put your hands on the floor. You can then use your free leg to kick backwards; while simultaneously trying to pull your trapped leg out. Because the enemy’s hands are occupied (i.e. holding your leg) a solid kick to the torso or groin may result in them being knocked off your leg, or letting go of your leg in other to protect themselves from the kick. Either way you get free. If this technique of desperation is performed solo (i.e. without someone holding the trapped leg up) it will look exactly like the spinning leap in the kata. Well, maybe not as graceful or stylised, but all aspects of the motion are there.

I hope that helps?

All the best,

Iain

--------------------
www.iainabernethy.com / "The aim of discussion should not be victory but progress." - Joseph Joubert

Posts: 1597 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakesh Patel
New Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Rakesh Patel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Andrew

Hi - below is a link to a previous thread where this topic has been discussed. I replied with a possible interpretation for practicing grips/throws also.

previous post

Cheers
Rakesh

--------------------
Kata Combat - Kata Competence
www.Rakesh-Patel.com
5th Dan BCA

Posts: 28 | From: Herts/Beds | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
komatsu
Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for komatsu   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That sure makes more sense than the flying body smash or the 5 or 6 other strange interpretations I've heard,.

komatsu

--------------------
common sense is so rarely used it is often mistaken for genius.pay attention at all times do your home work

Posts: 1120 | From: TORONTO GTA ONTARIO CANADA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
shoshinkan
Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for shoshinkan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
heres our version -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzRmm0r_fAE

the combination, for us starts at 0.27, outside block, reverse punch, right leg kick, turn/drop.

The Bunkai I teach is from hands up recieved a punch/push coming in, hit into the ribs then kick into whatever is there, lower body target but take the leg across the opponent whilst wrapping him (or he wraps you) up, turn/drop using your leg to trip - land on him with your hands pressing into vitals to push yourself up and away.

I hope that makes some kind of sense........keep in mind it's Bunkai and not meant to actually happen in any exact way!

Reality has more variables!

--------------------
www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Posts: 73 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SKU Andrew
New Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for SKU Andrew     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you,

Some interesting ideas and suggestions will have a play around at training and see what happens. I like the sound of Iains suggestion and can see how this would work although there is no kick up unlike Unshu. Having said that just because in the kata its on the ground doesn't mean in practice it would be!

Although I think I can also see what Rakesh and Shoshinkan suggest and I can see this in the kata with the leg shooting out at floor level.

Posts: 9 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Iain Abernethy
Administrator


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Iain Abernethy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Andrew,

I'm pleased you like the sound of that.

quote:
although there is no kick up unlike Unshu
There are the upward back kicks in Unshu (roundhouses in the Shotokan version "Unsu"), but there is no inherent spin in those, nor is there anything that would resemble pulling a trapped foot free. So I see those as being different.

For this motion, the kick would not be up as you could still be horizontal because, in application, the enemy would have hold of your other foot. The back leg on the final floor position is therefore the kick I was referencing. If you watch the clip, you can see how that leg shoots backward as part of the motion. If you freeze frame the position in the air, and imagine the other leg has seized, it should help you to visualise what I mean.

Apologies for failing to make what I meant by the kick clear. I hope this helps though?

All the best,

Iain

--------------------
www.iainabernethy.com / "The aim of discussion should not be victory but progress." - Joseph Joubert

Posts: 1597 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
shoshinkan
Member


Icon 1 posted      Profile for shoshinkan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
our Bunkai for the drop (after the kick and turn is more about the opponent 'wrapping' you up as a defensive measure, you see this kind of strategy alot when people clinch etc etc, it doesn't matter where your leg land, inside, outside, across both legs, just tripping one as you wrap with your right arm as in an underhook and turn/drop - your left hand hikite just wraps his right arm.

sorry it's not so clear in words! But it is basically like a judo o-uchi gari here -

http://users.etown.edu/w/wunderjt/syllabi/FYS_Judo_Secrets_of_Judo_FBD.html

(Edit by Iain - Link shortened to prevent page distortion)

[ March 08, 2010, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Iain Abernethy ]

--------------------
www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Posts: 73 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Home page

Copyright 2005 - 2010: IainAbernethy.com

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2